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Birds Of A Feather: The Past, The Present, The Interview.

posted by: Nico on 25 May 2009

Recently BOAF finished their concept record. It contains their record from last year released on LP with a large book on the European hardcore scene. This for me was primarily the reason to ask them some questions and they were more then willing to answer them. So read on!

What I understood is that the LP is delayed due to a book that will be added to the LP version of the record. Can you tell me what to expect from that book? How about the LP any details on that?
JP: True. The vinyl version of "The Past The Present" is delayed because of the book. You can expect a book on straight edge in Europe from our own point of view as we have experienced straight edge over the years. It was a lot of work: tracking down people, going after pictures, doing interviews and what not, but Marc and me pulled it off. The book is done and, most important, I'm pleased with how it turned out.
Marc: The book is called “The Past The Present, a history of 25 years of European straight edge, 1982-2007”. Somehow, during on of our van-rides to a not very well attended show in the middle of nowhere somewhere in Europe we discussed how funny or coincidental it was that we all ended up in this band together. Jeff from Crivits and X-men, Bigma from ManLiftingBanner and Mainstrike, JP from Value Of Strength, our new kid on the block Paul and myself from BTD and Betray. Basically we could have been in bands or projects together, but it had never happened before. Because I came from Amsterdam and Jeff from Rotterdam (laughter). But somehow Bigma and JP came to live in Amsterdam, just 300 meters apart from each other, and Nico interviewed me for his Sailin’On fanzine, putting me in Bigma’s radar again, and so on.
So since we all go back a long time and how we came from different parts of a now long-gone scene, with a lot of local flavour I suddenly realised firstly the coincidence of it all, not just us being in the van, but also me growing up in the town next Menno van Gaalen, the singer of Lärm, and how we all know each other, and secondly, whilst talking about the old days, how big the influence of the Dutch straight edge was (and maybe still is) on straight edge as a whole. Going from Lärm to ManLiftingBanner to Mainstrike, having Crivits influencing different groups of people through the different path they chose, you end up by Reaching Forward, Eye of Judgement and eventually Birds Of A Feather.
What we did was interviewing a couple of bands face to face (Lärm, ManLiftingBanner, Mainstrike, Crivits and Eye Of Judgement), and about 50 people by email. From the raw material I made a storyline telling the development of the European Straight Edge from a Dutch perspective, adding stories from all over Europe (Sweden, Poland, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Belgium, France, the UK, Germany, Macedonia, etcetera). Writing non-fictional history you cannot be complete, nor can you include all the stories – kill your darlings…. So it is our story, our interpretation, of how things were.
Also we did go through quite some photo archives and so the book ended up to be 108 pages, 29 cm x 29 cm, and has over 250 photos in it.
I think it is a really nice document for anyone interested in hardcore or straight edge, and I am especially proud of the Lärm-story, since they meant so much to me.

Marc, in what way did Lärm inspire you? Was this the first punk or hardcore band you came into contact with?
Marc: As I said, Menno lived close to me, in Laren actually, when I lived in Blaricum. White suburban punks! I grew up in a sort of average watered down hippie familiy in the suburbs. In the final class of elementary school I discovered bands like The Jam, The Clash and the Sex Pistols, through Andy Bosma, who had an older brother, Mike that had access to all kinds of new and exciting music. For me, at that time there was no distinction between music; I liked The Jam as much as I liked Supertramp for instance. I mean, it was 1978, 1979...But the energy of those bands appealed to me straight away, and in the first grade of highschool ("junior high") I liked the energy of similar bands, like the two-tone ska bands, but also Tenpole Tudor, Adam and the Ants, and new wave bands such as Joy Division, early Gang Of Four, The Cure. In 1980, during the queensdayriots - the crowning of Beatrix - and following shortly after my emerging friendship with Bart BTD, we discovered 'real punk'. My slightly older cousin Marianne worked at the "Expert Record Store" in Laren of all places, and me and my friend Bart somehow managed to persuade her to order anything she could find with "punk" on it; Crass, Discharge, Dead Kennedys, Cockney Rejects and so on. So we had a constant and fresh supply of records (that we sometimes 'borrowed' from the store to tape them at home and then return to the store). So we made all those tapes compilations of our shared record collection and traded those for other tapes with other punks from the area. Also these punkrecords at the recordstore drew new clientele, and we read all these cool bands names from eachothers jackets, discovering new bands and so on. I went to see some shows at the Tagrijn, a local youth club in Hilversum, saw The Ex play there, this must have been 1981 or so, at the library I discovered a book with a compilation of early Koekrand fanzine (before Nieuwe Koekrand). Through all that I realized there was a difference between "punk" and "corporate punk". Besides that, Menno had been in a band already, we knew him through 'hanging out' at the recordstore and through mutual friends (he was 3 years older then me). We went to see him and his new band Lärm play at the Tagrijn, together with some other local heroes DDT and Red Riot, and all those bands blew me away. And these people, bands and audience, a bunch of freaks and outcasts of different sorts, were instant new friends. So we got to know people who had just moved into the Wielingen, a squat in Amsterdam, where we then went to see bands and to meet people. Other people were in other local bands, like Echte Boter GVD. We were inspired to start our own band. And together with Menno we headed over to Amersfoort, to see bands and hang out. Witnessing Lärm "operate" (trading tapes, booking shows, running a squat, releasing records and so on) was a huge inspiration. So to answer your question, yes, Lärm was the first DIY hardcoreband I knew from close by!

What was the initial idea in the first place to write that that book?
JP: I think it was the chemistry between Marc with his writing and speeching skills and myself trying to be a designer and doing the Value Of Strength fanzine that got the idea of writing, interviewing, compiling and making a book in the works. We talked a lot about doing a concept record that reflects our past but also reflects the present and with that we thought that a book would fit into that idea.
Marc: I just wanted to write a book (laughter). No, I sort of disappeared from the hardcore scene in between 1994 – 2001, so I completely missed out on Mainstrike! I picked up their records, because Bigma is a friend, but I never saw them play. When I started to play in Nixnieuwz, with people from Yawp and Uitdesloot, I also started to go to shows again and to hang out again, and rediscovered the hardcore scene. At the same time I knew that I had become “old” – I mean I am 41 years old today, I just now realise that my dad was 41 when I became punk! – and that the scene that I knew from the 80-ies and early 90-ies had developed into something different. Not better or worse, just different. Seeing that in its context I decided that it was such a shame that the story of some friends doing stupid stuff, being in bands, running squats and fanzines, being goofy and so on was slowly disappearing from our shared memories, despite the fact that we are all straight edge and should be able to remember the old days! Besides that I was really annoyed with some books about punk and hardcore, in either glorifying the old days and retelling the same stories over and over again, or their geography, basically being the USA and the UK. So I took the old punk-question (“Why?”) and answered it (“Do It Yourself!”).
When we slowly started this project in 2007 it was really hard for me to limit the scope of the content. I mean, first of all, it is not very interesting to tell just the facts, but instead it is interesting to tell a story. But it is tempting to just chronologically put all the facts in a particular order and that is that. But that only makes a catalogue or encyclopedia, and that is exactly what makes a lot of books on hardcore so boring. So finding the stories, and getting rid of all the “dead weight” was a lot of work, also in rethinking the storyline, or plot, if that is how you want to call it. And besides that, it was quite disappointing to discover that a lot of people had nothing more to say then “We started a band, made a record, played some shows and broke up”. Mmm.

JP, how much differs making this book from doing the fanzine? Also can you shed some more light on the concept record idea? It sounds to me something the Who or Queen would make not an hardcore band.
JP: The biggest difference in making this book compared to the fanzine is that I didn't have to write any reviews, articles and do 95% of all work by myself. Looking back, working on this book is best to categorise in three parts that Marc and I worked collectively on. The first part was getting in touch with -and tracking down people. Send them an email and start stalking these same people for a couple of months by sending over and over again the questions for the interview. While we got the first repsonse back we started working on part two: interviewing bands. From the beginning it was obvious for the two of us that we were going to interview Lärm, Manliftingbanner, Mainstrike and Eye Of Judgement. These bands were leading for us get some sort of order and structure in the book. For Marc leading in the sense of writing the story and categorising all mail from people that was coming in. For myself to start digging up pictures from people and bands that I had to categorise the right era of time and it was important to me to have some sort of order while working on the lay out. When we did all the band interviews and decided to give up on emailing people Marc started writing and compiling text. During that periode of time I started working on a timetable from Euro edge bands and digged into my own archive of live photography and scanned probably over 700 pictures, which resulted over the months in an impressive photo archive from European straight edge bands. I ended up with so many pictures, not just pictures that I tok by myself during the course of years but people like Teun K (for example) were kind enough to have us dig into their photo archives as well. Maybe some day we should set up an exhibition from these pics, but that's a different story. Anyway, when Marc finished writing the book, it was about time for me to start working on the book design. Design and lay out wise I used Value Of Strength issue 10 as a reference. I wanted to aim for a clean lay out with tons of pictures. A book with a magazine feel to it that had to be an easy read. For that I did some research to find the right typeface to use for headings, text and quotes. That's how I got started working on the lay out. In the end it took me about 4 months to finish the artwork and lay out for the book. It felt like I was working 2 full time jobs at the same time, 7 days a week as I was behind my computer 24/7. It was insane, but it paid off in the end.
As for the concept, the idea got more shape after several hours of just talking about it. It was mainly just me and Marc with a little bit of help from Bigma that shaped the idea of the book during our numerous rides to band practise. In BOAF we all know eachother from back in the days. That's what keeps us going strong and ties us together being a band nowadays. So basically it's just the past that got us, as a band, together nowadays. Aside from lyrics that deal about the past and the present we came up with the idea of doing a book and make the release stand out/ something special this way. The book reflects, just as the music and lyrics, on our past and present. For that we got in touch with people we know from the past that in some way were related to us. That's pretty much all I can say about it since this is how we as a band, the book, our music and lyrics got together and make it work the way it is. So no Queen or The Who, DIY baby!

Marc, where there a lot of bands you looked forward to interviewing that turned that they have nothing worthy of writing down to tell? Did this influence you in anyway how you looked up certain scenes from specific era’s or countries?
Marc: Lets see, I have to blame myself first. I didn’t speak to anyone that I wanted to speak to, so that is a personal disappointment. Jean-Paul and me started really structured and organized with spreadsheets and timelines. And we did a lot of email-interviews. When these interviews were returned I had to validate the information first and after that I had to reduce or purify the information so that it would not pollute the storyline. It was complete chaos, because every interview had different interesting aspects, or new information. Overwhelming and sometimes intimidating or overbearing. All that was so much energy-draining work that it distracted me from the (not really productive and ridiculous) idea to be "complete", which you can not be at all. It costed me evening after evening to rewrite spanish-english and portuguese-english and polish-english into my own crummy euro-english. So that just drained my energy and therefore I overlooked some people that I should have interviewed, like Kokie and Hazel from Belgium and Ian Leck from the UK. All old friends, so not to hard to track down and interview. Some people were reluctant to cooperate in the beginning, but after a slow start they had quite interesting stories, like Edward and Hans from Belgium/H8000. Some people, like Jose and Marcus from Sweden, had so much interesting stuff to say, that it was really hard to cut from their information. As people will see in the book, there is not a strong emphasis on bands like Onward, Eyeball and Sportswear. Although we tried several times and in different ways, they never responded. I dont know why. Maybe they didn't like me (they are not the only ones, laughter), maybe they thought that it would never be interesting enough of that it would never be good, I don't know. And I was disappointed in some worthless responses to our interviews, but again, I mainly blame myself. I should have asked better questions, and when two bands walked the same path, it is only interesting to tell it once.... But if we ever do an updated version, me and JP will travel around to at least meet and sit down with all the people and bands mentioned above! That will basically complete the story. Sorry, no naming and shaming on specific disappointing answers! And I don’t know if that really influenced my opinion on certain scenes and countries, maybe it just reinforced my prejudice (laughter). And I should have sat down and talk more with Dax, sorry bro....

I also heard about a release of the record in other parts of the world, how is that coming together?
JP: The one thing we had in mind when we started the writing for the full length record was to have a as massive distribution as possible. So we approached people from all over the place that we were in touch with if it was interesting for them to do our record in their part of the world. This is how we ended up working with Refuse Records who are covering Europe and the USA, Crucial Times Records from Japan who are covering Asia and Australia and 78 Life Records who are dealing with South America.

With all these labels taking care of business all around the globe, are there any ambitions within the band to play outside of Europe? Do you think it is feasible due to time, family and money constrains?
JP: Of course it's like a dream come true when you get offered to play a different continents. Ambitions are definitely there, but thing is that we need to find a way to make this work since we all work full time jobs and (some of us) have a family to take care of. Until now it was never really a problem to make both ends meet as far as shows and trips go. As long as there's time to plan ahead I'm pretty sure things will work out. During band practise we have fantasized several times about doing sort of a world tour. Buy world plane tickets (or whatever they're called). Go to Asia to promote the record, then take a plane to the South America, have a lay over in Chicago for a couple of days and play shows in the Midwest. Then go to Brasil and do a bunch of shows there before heading back to Europe. So yeah, we did talk about it, but as of now it's still a dream that we need to fullfil. Who knows, some day we might be able to pull this off. I'm definitely into it!

I was surprised by the fact you choose Refuse to release the new record, how did that come together and how is it working out for you?
JP: Robert from Refuse has always been supportive to us from the very beginning. Basically it all started when we went to Poland with Abusive Action in the summer of 2006 to play the Open Hardcore Festival that Robert used to organise.
Marc: A lot of the records of former bands we played in were released on Crucial Response Records, so we owe a lot to Peter Hoeren and his label. Whilst working on the album we expressed that we really wanted local support on the record and asked Peter if he was interested in doing license-deals with local labels elsewhere on the planet. Well, he wasn’t, and also he said that with our ambition on distribution that it could be wise for us to move on to different labels. So it was a mutual decision to end the co-operation with Crucial Response. We started out with approaching different people that we know throughout the world, and some of them were really interested to work with us. We decided to go along with people that we like, that have the same ideas like us on how the scene and how the “DIY-business” works, with us still doing a lot of the work. And besides all that, Robert Refuse is a great guy and crazy enough to support us in our even crazier idea with the book!

All together your combined experience in bands exceeds the fifty year mark, what keeps it so interesting for you to play in a band? In what way differs BOAF from your previous band(s)?
Jeff: The most interesting thing for me is to play and be together on the road and playing shows with the people who are in BOAF, meeting people all over the world who show an interest in BOAF, and of course going to places that I never been to, or places to I played at before and liked it that much to return again if possible.
The difference is that in my previous band(s) mostly a bunch of (best) friends started a band and had the same ideas and ideals, but after so many years in playing in that band a lot of things changed and came to an end. Now in BOAF the ideas and ideals are the same as mine (as I always had) and I know the guys in the band already so long and consider them as my best friends now instead of other, or more casual friends. And I don’t think that a lot of ideas and ideals of the BOAF members are going to change that much in the coming years, that I don’t feel like a 110% positive to.
Bigma: For me playing in a band is - besides to having a good time and be around good friends - a way to express myself, it is a kind of outlet to express my ideas and outlook on life. I am not a good spokesman and I am not very good with words to express my thoughts and feelings, so for me writing lyrics is a good way to communicate and a way to think about stuff and maybe rethink about some aspects of life.
It is funny because a lot of kids in “the scene” think about me as this “big” preacher but when I am on stage, the person that I “preach” the most to is myself. Not because I am not convinced about the stuff I am saying but to stay focused on what I am doing and to put these words into action. And in this way I hope to give some inspiration to other people, not to convince them or lure them into becoming Hare Krishna devotees or to force my opinion on them.
I really think this is the last serious performing band that I am doing. Not only because I am getting older and getting other priorities in life but also because it is time to finally put the meaning of these words that we were always singing about into action, like making a change and reaching for a better life than this selfish, exploitative and destructive lifestyle we are sucked into and that we are so rebellious about. To be honest how many more songs do you need to write about all this and what is it worth when you do nothing with it? So I reached a point in life to make up the balance and put the words into action.
And it is a spiritual struggle for me because Hardcore has been such a big part of my life the past 22 years that I don’t just can let it go. On the other hand I see myself drifting away more and more and slowly losing connection with the scene. And I already hear a lot off people say “yeah but you can do both” but that is not very practical when you work 40 hours a week and time is getting more and more valuable when you getting older.
Marc: Pfff, we talk about this a lot. We are getting old, I guess. I agree with Bigma that somehow we all feel that this is the last time that we can do a serious band that you build up from scratch. And that it is really a lot of hard work and it gets tedious being in another empty venue in Rimini, Italy, or a packed venue in Germany and nobody knows either the band, any songs or even us or any of our previous efforts. So that makes us more aware of what is going on, and how much effort it is with our “real lives” – we all have real jobs that we like to do, some of us are married, have children. That puts a different strain on the band. I mean, there are other priorities, my children are almost 11 and 7 years old, and I try to raise them in a conscious way. Spending time with them is more important to me then seeing the next band coming through. And I have to admit, Bigma really made me see the things he is pointing out, about our exploitative lifestyle, and how you can use your freewill to abstain from a pace of consumerism that most people think is normal, but that is actually very unsustainable and abnormal. And coming to that, we really do care about our message, lyrics and lifestyle. It is not some act we put on when we go on stage. And when you don’t get a reaction on what we are saying (either being supportive or strongly disagreeing, I don’t care), that costs a lot of energy. And what I like about hardcore is the mutual energy, where the distinction between band and audience disappears – the shows were that happens make up for all the bullshit.
Beside what I stated above I don’t think it differs that much from previous bands. It is a fine balance between friendship, fun and creativity and a lot of hard work, sweat and disagreements. I could not do without any band at all, I just need it, the energy, the noise, to cope with day to day life. Bigma and me probably end up in an oi-cover band, never leaving the practice space!
JP: Birds Of A Feather is the first "real" band that I am playing in. Since I saw a lot of friends selling out of straight edge the idea of doing a straight edge bands with older dudes became more and more a wish to fulfil. When moving to Amsterdam and having Bigma living around the corner it was just the most obvious thing to do. I introduced the idea to him and that's pretty much how things started rolling.
Paul: For me Birds of a Feather is the first very serious band to play in and with that i mean recordings, tours etcetera. I think it's great to see and meet many different people on the road and also to do and express stuff you stand for. As a band this is just a great group of people, we get along well and have a lot of fun. But it's also serious about where we stand in life, how we act on things and situations etcetera. Like Bigma i can relate to getting older (although i'm still the rookie in the band, sorry Marc ;-) ) It isn't that easy as 10 years ago but sharing a message with kids is very well worth it. I was aked to do a project with Bigma when we first met on a 108 show but when BOAF was in need of a drummer i was asked to fill that place and Jeff jumped in on guitar. Before BOAF i played in Torment of Ignorance and some other bands which were more like metal-core and also in some punkrock related bands. For me this is a dream come true as i always hoped to be in a band that takes care of business and take a stand.

Bigma, in what way do you think you can put your words into action? Do I need to think about direction action in some form or will it be on a more personal level like some kind of spiritual quest? Also can you tell something about the feeling time is getting limited? Why do you feel it takes more from you physically or mentality to have a full time job and being in band and all other activities? Does it comes with getting older or are there different reasons?
Bigma: Self-realization is the goal of life and to practice this, that is direct action. I have reached the point in life that I am no longer on a quest. To me it is clear that the path of Krishna consciousness and following Srila Prabhupada is the method to live life and to fulfil my real purpose here on earth.
At least in theory I have 100% faith in Srila Prabhupada and his teachings. So the next step is to live up to this and that means to follow the instructions of the spiritual master and make sure that HIS movement will become as he left it and instructed us how it should be managed.
So the path of Krishna Consciousness is not about sitting in the temple having nice programs and good food and stuff. No, it’s about fighting for your spiritual master even though people hate you for this, kick your ass for this and treat you like a apostate. You just don’t think about it because it is not about result or any personal gain. That is being a spiritual warrior and we owe it to Srila Prabhupada because HE risked his life to come as a very old man to the West to preach his philosophy and built up the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Nowadays some fake imposers took over the movement and turned it into some cult only to satisfy their own satisfaction; they rape children, steal money and are being treated “as good as god”. All of that in the name of Srila Prabhupada’s movement. They use and misuse HIS teachings and his glory to turn this movement into a big scandal. So from this point I can see that a lot of people are against “organised” religion because it is indeed an institution that is based on mind control. But this was never the intention of Srila Prabhupada and so we’ll fight this battle.

Well, about the time factor; see, you have to be realistic. I am almost 40, that means I used half my time already (when I am lucky). I just don’t want to waste this other half of my life simply by hanging out with some social clicks and spent all my time on so-called scene politics and other non sense. And yeah, having a full time job takes a lot, physically that is. I am not in a good shape anymore (laughter). Just have a look at the pictures in the book or any previous records and come to a BOAF show these days and see the difference yourself.

Marc, you talk about raising your children in a conscious way, does the need to raise them in that way come from your ideals and views you obtained trough punkrock and hardcore or does also the way you have been raised yourself as kid by your parents play a role in this?
Marc: Of course you bring into your own family what you took along from your childhood. My family was always very hospitable, for instance, which I took for granted. And there was a lot of room for discussion with my parents (not for reflection though, laughter). My parents also set an example in doing a lot of voluntary community work and political work (not my politics, laughter). But I think the punkrock part is equally big, if not bigger though! Questioning society, escape from the hoax. Make my children aware that there is something as freewill, and holding your ground when it comes to important issues. But let me put this straight, kids need to be kids. They need to get dirty, fall in playgrounds, steal some bikes from a pile of trash, empty the cookie jar and get nauseous, you know, the stuff kids do. We have two daughters, so we put quite some emphasis on feminism (it is very interesting what you experience as a parent on the different gender-approach when you have daughters....). As a family we try talk about making choices, about questioning "the things that are". I am straight edge, my wife is not. We are vegetarian, but our kids eat meat or fish occasionally when they are at other people. We share one car with another family in our neighbourhood, so we travel with public transport a lot. We basically don't watch tv, but we do have a xbox and a Wii. We do a lot of boardgames, and the best I can do nowadays with my youngest daughter in checkers is a draw (Dax, I still win in playing chess!). We both work equal amounts parttime, so the children hardly need any afterschool-care outside ours. And so on. There are thousands of small and big decisions that you take on a day to day basis for and with your children, and you can only do you best.

Listening to your ideas on BOAF I notice a lot of similarities on the way you think about the band and in the way you say your are connected to the band. Is this also a big topic during band practice or road trips to shows? Do you think it is important to have the same views and ideals within the band and on a personal level to make BOAF work as a group?
JP: Aside from all of us being friends, straight edge and vegetarian or vegan there aren't really any similarities between us, it's all chemistry I guess, because the way we think never really came up as a topic we wanted to discuss. Of course are the ideals within the band important. Without the ideals we wouldn't be the straight edge band we are. As for the same views, that's something more personal. I'm pretty sure we don't have the same views on politics and religion just to name a few. What became obvious to me is that BOAF, as a group, works because we all have respect for eachother. Don't push anything to reach certain goals and most important -but ooh so cheesy- is that we have fun and enjoy what we're doing.

I notice you guys are much more outspoken in the lyrics then most current bands. Does it annoy you or otherwise bothers you that the message isn’t important anymore to a lot of people?
Bigma: Yeah, on one hand it bothers me because to me it seems that hardcore lost it potential and meaning as I see that the priorities of a lot of bands and labels changed. In my opinion hardcore and punk used to be a movement that was against the whole “big business” bullshit and commercial nonsense. It was a movement where we created our own labels, our own distribution and our own ”music” press. It was not about being the next big thing or getting the best label deal and getting on these travelling circus tours that we have today with five American bands playing in these huge venues. It seems to me that all of that is the focus of a lot of bands and labels today.
But don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that hardcore is about bands playing for 50 euro's in some obscure squat for 25 people or something like that. No, what I mean is the bands that go up on stage and speak their mind and are an inspiration and that is something I miss in hardcore, actually since the mid-nineties already. Lately I got the idea that it is cool to either be and act like a total idiot with nothing on your mind at all and just partying your life away or to be a tough motherfucker with the whole world against you and pretending that life is not treating you well and therefore everybody has to be pay for this if they are not as “real” as you.
Today, to me in the hardcore scene it looks like that you better have no opinion at all or – if you have one – you better shut up about it. On the other hand it is also me that has changed so I know it is not fair to a new generation of hardcore kids not to take them seriously or give them the idea that the old days where so much better or of more importance.
JP: It doesn't necessarily bother me, I think it is a pity -a major letdown- that the message that comes with the music isn't important anymore to the majority of kids nowadays. When I grew up with this kind of music it was all about the message, politics, ethics and trying to make difference. That's what got me hooked on punk and hardcore. At that time I was into heavy music and the idea that hardcore and punk was more than just heavy music made it even more interesting to me.
Marc: Well, I think that our lyrics are very inspirational. We usually decide on the topics all together, but Bigma writes them. They give me a lot of food for thought. For me the lyrics – besides the friendship - are a big part of why I like to play in this band. What surprises me – it doesn’t really bother or annoy me – that people either turn their back on us (“ooh, a straight edge band”, “are they a cult”, “krishna’s?”) or they do not respond at all. I would have expected more discussion on one hand and more brother-/sisterhood on the other. But it is good to see in reviews of the Chapter 5 7” and The Past The Present LP that some of the reviewers paid close attention to the lyrics!
Paul: It doesn't really bother me but i do have a problem with all the negative stuff in the scene. For me personally it doesn't belong in Hardcore. When i got into the scene about 17 years ago it was about growing up, having problems but making the best of it and turning negative into something you can learn from, focussing on positive things and make a better world for myself and others. Not about dwelling and drowning in your sorrows and hate. Nobody ever got better from that. Things don't change if we don't change.

Bigma, this shallowness you describe can it be attributed only to new kids in the scene or is a change noticeable within elderly members of the hardcore community? I have seen a lot of kids with shifting ideals and views. What could be the reason not to spread and debate anymore on certain subjects, why do they shut up? Any ideas about that?
Bigma: I don’t think you really can blame new kids because they come into a scene where there are no meanings or bands pointing out certain aspects off life. So that’s a big difference I think with how my generation came in contact with hardcore. We came from a punk background, which was based (or at least pretended to be) on left wing politics. And today… Well I don’t know, maybe we should ask some new kids why they are attracted to hardcore because I can only speculate.
What I noticed some time ago - and I can't remember which band it was - but I was checking how a lot of kids where singing along with bald fists and angry faces and I was just trying to figure out why they where so angry. I could only think; if you are so angry and dissatisfied with life than use your energy in a positive way and turn your life into a way that works for you and reach for that person you want to be, instead of blaming society and acting all tuff.
The problem with a lot of older people is that in some stage of life they burn out and they can not connect their ideals into their daily life so that is the ultimate test; are you doing it for the social click or to improve your life?

Marc, you said you decide on the topics all together, can you tell me how it works? Do you sit around a table and talk about it or do you email each other ideas? Are there any topics you prefer to avoid due difference in views or beliefs?
Marc: Although we don't really play that much, we already spent too many hours waiting or driving; in cars, vans, parking lots, venues, ferries, airports and so on. Hundreds of hours. So we have a resurfacing discussion about "vla" and "pudding", which JP cannot keep apart from each other properly! But we discuss a lot of other things whilst waiting, from animal rights, to bogus gurus, to the Iskcon Revival Movement. From those discussions and from Bigma's continuing flow of thoughts we get the topics for the lyrics. It is not that we sit down and go like "I want a song on vegetarianism" and vote on a proposition. It is more like "hey that was an interesting point of view, or a good discussion, what can we do with that". I don't think we avoid anything. We are friends that go back a long way, we witnessed intense, heavy moments in each other lives (getting married, having children, losing close relatives), so that bond is strong enough not be scared on what one wants to say. The worst thing you can have in a band is democracy, (laughter), so anything goes!

I want to focus on the music a bit, I know we discussed this before previous to this interview, but I think it is nice to talk about it again. What struck me both positively and negatively is the diversity in the songs. The majority are fast and straight forward songs while others tend to be a bit slower and more melodic. This worked great on the full length but on the Chapter five single that melodic song felt a bit out of place. How came the songs came out this way? Will a new release also be so diverse?
Marc: Firstly we have currently three people that write songs, Jeff, Bigma and me. Secondly we had some sketches for songs from the time with Pepijn, Jonas and Gijs. I felt really strong that on that 7" songs of each of the current writers should be represented. So maybe the closing song is too melodic for some, but I like the song a lot. I agree with you that the album is more balanced. My writing skills are very limited, either intricate music that is only interesting for those who play it, but is hard to listen to (http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanou/blackheads) or straight forward early Poison Idea like hardcore. The last time we were on the road with Roel Of Judgement he was actually surprised that we basically only listened to punk, oi and hardcore from the 80-ies. So all the hardcore songs without an intro or outro and a short breakdown are mine. Jeff writes the harmonic and melodic stuff, and Bigma the more NYC-Cro-Mags-mute-some-parts-breakdown-repeat-intro-as-outro songs. Bigma is also the great dictator when it comes to song structure. Although he listens to a lot of oi which is basically two riffs over and over again, he is really keen on length and repetition, so he strips all the songs to a bare minimum. For which I really admire him. So for instance in a song like Not Worth The Grief there is an intro, 2 verses and 2 choruses, a breakdown and an outro in 57 seconds. I just love that. Speaking about a new release, I wrote three songs that are, again, very straight forward, but we are actually aiming for a more harmonic and melodic progression (see Bigma make the same vocal change as Ray Cappo, laughter)...

So what do you have planned this year?
JP: Hopefully kids will pick us up more once the vinyl version of our record is out. We'd like to play more shows and do more (weekend) tours.
Marc: Personally, I am really anxious for the reactions on the record and the book. The Refuse-version (the polish pressing) of the CD is already going for a second pressing, people from Brazil give us very positive responses, so that is something that gives me a lot of energy. I hope to see that also in turnouts and energy at shows! And I am trying to re-ignite Nixnieuwz, four old farts playing eighties style hardcore….

Marc, the final question is for you, is it true you let the mayor of Amsterdam listen to BOAF?
Marc: Yes. Although Cohen probably doesn't remember it anymore (he has to listen to a lot of crap), it is true.

Interview by Nico.
Pictures provided by the band.